BULGARIA and modern monetary theory (MMT)
The purpose of this blog is to introduce and educate Bulgarian citizens with Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), which explained how knowledgeable and capable government can achieve permanent full employment and stable prices.
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AUSOME PICTURE of KRUGMAN WITH YOUR BOOK!!!!!
@Thomas Bergbusch,
err Awesome too, maybe!
Yes! In the name of public purpose so criminally abandoned in Bulgaria!
@RVMarkov, i liked the sign, as i think it sums up what we really need to kick start the economy. demand requires people with money in their pocket to spend. get the money in the peoples hands and we’ll see jobs come.
Anyway, that was interesting picture of krugman with warrens books. Is there any story behind it? is the picture from bulgaria?
@Ed,
I liked that motto too as soon as Warren came up with it here on his site. 🙂
I bet the picture with the book and Mr. Krugman must have interesting history, but I don’t know it and most likely isn’t related to Bulgaria. Think somebody linked it again here, maybe a year or two ago, and I just googled it last week for my blog.
@RVMarkov, RV, is that u in the picture?
@Ed,
Yes, it’s me.
ok warren, if your around, can you tell us if there is any story behind the picture of krugman with your book?…..:-)
Skender, standing with K, emailed it to me after meeting him at some event I can’t recall
Hi Bulgarian friends. This is Paolo Barnard, the propagator of Mosler Economics in Italy. We thought that from now on the proper international name for MMT must be Mosler Economics MMT for Public Purpose (ME-MMT). You can take a look at the logo at the top left of this blog, or here http://memmt.info/site/.
Reasons for this: A) MMT is Warren and he must be at the top B) MMT by itself is a foggy and unfortunate name, because it’s not a theory and it’s not even modern. It’s a description of how monetary systems work, period. And taxes drive money has been true for 5,000 years. So, I invite all those wanting to propagate Mosler Economics to unite under ME-MMT for Public Purpose.
Best P
@Paolo Barnard, The logo is fine, but how would you say all those m’s out loud. “public purpose” is nicely alliterative, but ME-MMT for Public Purpose is too long for an acronym.
Also, I think that while associating a theory with a proper name helps promote it, Keynes is a strange name, also hard to know how to pronounce right. Obama, for example, is both alliterative and associative, even when it is syllablized. Even Nobama spreads the word.
Perhaps PPE would work better. Public Policy Economics. PeePeeE would sound sort of silly, but a good change for the dismal science. And PE is well known for Physical Education and much needed, at least in the U.S.
Mosler is not a good moniker. The Mosel Valley produces nice wine, but to mosey along is not energetic enough. Our thinking about the economy has to be energized.
Public Policy is going to get some resistance, if only because the public is anathema to the authoritarians. After all, the whole point of austerity is to punish the public for presuming too much.
@Monica Smith,
agreed. ME-MMT is already too long.
actually MMT itself is quite a nice name even if what it stands for is not totally true.
@Paolo Barnard,
Hi Paolo,
I liked the slogan
http://www.economonitor.com/lrwray/files/2011/10/Flier_OWS1.pdf
you suggested back in 2011 for OWS movement and I added a bit from me and printed 1000 copies of it. I admire your job in Italy – that’s great, real action! Let’s see where on planet earth the first MMT government will be elected. 🙂 This must happen in the next 7-8 years or otherwise I will lose a $100 bet I made 2-3 years ago with a friend.
I think the name isn’t of such a great importance. I understand the “modern” part of the MMT as contemporary, nowadays, fiat and not gold standard system and not the theory itself. MMT became already known on line (Wikipedia), and in the blogosphere (Mr. Krugman and the likes), plus MMT fits nicely on my hat. 🙂
Bottom line I think we should stick with what became most popular already. Modern Money or Modern Monetary or ME-MMT, like you are suggesting, doesn’t matter for me. What matters, as we all believe, is the substance – full employment combined with price stability.
@Paolo Barnard,
Your utterance sounds more like authoritarian not democratic. Too much “must be” and “is”. MMT spreads around globe also due to Warren Mosler activities. An intelligent observer can see his big ownership rights but 100% doesn’t seem to be fair enough to other MMTers. MMT stands for something but the most important it became a symbol. And it is a theory, a good one because it corectly describes the reality of fiat money system and functional finance.
I don’t see any sense in creating a new, weaker brand. And this is just my opinion.
Kind regards
Cezary
We demand money printing of paper and inflation cause it makes us “feel” wealthier.
The founding fathers of America demanded “read wealth” the kind that once you’ve earned real money then YOU own it forever. You do not have to keep working extra to keeping the results of your labor from wasting away, in other words, the GOVERNMENT and BANKS own your labor due to inflation.
Especially in a MMT world.
@Alicia, if it’s any consolation, we –most of us at any rate– will eventually be accessing all our money through our smart phones, at which time we can do away with printing money for good.
Paolo.
‘MMT is Warren’
Is not MMT, Warren, Bill and Randy and then Stefanie, Scott and so on and so on down to the rest of us wo support it and try to spread the word ?
I thought. we were doing quite well, succeeding in bringing MMT to a wider audience. Suddenly we have strategising, meme framing, repositioning, renaming…… etc. I’ve got no problem with a bit more organising but I’d like to think it was part of a consensus
What’s going on ?
@Andy,
Because i’m a huge scientist, by my recent studies, in megaelektron literature (pocket-size edition), i’ve read your problem and in a supa alphanumerical calculus i obtain those kind of result, and it must be used for the best effective purpose:
ME – MMT = Mosler Equipment (for) My Mother Table
well,
thank you anyway
@flux, Thank you as well Paolo for the full and frank answer. Most useful.
@Andy,
I agree.
I – for one – found and understood MMT through Bill Mitchell’s blog. Only then I could follow Warren’s thoughts, and bought his book, as well as Randy’s book.
Stephanie’s explanations are the best there are for introduction to MMT.
So all parts are equally important. It would be counter productive to concentrate on personalities, IMO
yes, better to start with my book than start with reading the daily blog entries!
@WARREN MOSLER,
Well, I personally needed all of that to really start believing that this is a major breakthrough.
Not any one book or blog that did it, but daily reading of all of them.
I mean – it was easy to see significance of these ideas at once, but to grasp implications took time
Thanks all for your replies. ME-MMT in English sounds like “I want MMT, or “I’m one of the MMT crowd”. Plus it contains Mosler in the title. @Cezary and all of you: if you think that Warren Mosler’s rightful place as the father and developer of MMT is obvious to all you’re badly wrong. The reality is quite the opposite: UMKC professors + Bill Mitchell are universally recognized as the source of MMT, and Warren is virtually unknown to the majority of international MMT sympathizers. I dealt with all of the said professors and fully appreciated their contributions. However, after meeting Warren I realized that this man is some 2 centuries ahead of all his colleagues, but not just. I realized that he was the source of all we know today as MMT, and it seemed odd to me that the acronym of HIS theory had nothing to do with him. It was actually concocted by a student somewhere, and the Mosler Economics part had been forgotten. So I decided to put this right. We in Italy now talk of Mosler Economics MMT, and so it should be everywhere. Modern Money Theory as a name for Warren’s ideas is wrong, stupid and unfair, if I can be honest. Thx P.
@Paolo Barnard,
That’s great, Paolo, keep up your amazing work! Warren’s legacy has its deserving place in the history of mankind already. Sooner or later there will be a big hollywood production base on the MMT story, and I want to believe the actor, playing Warren, will get an Oscar for best leading male role.
@Paolo Barnard,
I don’t want to conduct a debate as i’m not competent enough. You must have a lot of evidence to maintain that all MMTers are 2 centuries behind Warren’s ideas re MMT. Be it your opinion or fact i’m not capable to evaluate at the moment. Nevertheless, now i understand your choice in favour of ME-MMT (apart from hidden messsage “I want MMT”).
Majority of MMT international sympathizers (business owners, managers, system thinkers and other professionals) at LinkedIn “MMT World” group (currently 50 people and we are permanently open to new members at: http://bit.ly/MMTWorld) do not understimate Warren’s contribution to what we call MMT. BTW, i’ve heard or read Warren stating that he developed MMT ideas independently.
With respect to you and your team contribution to develop MMT exposure in Italy i wish you good luck in your further endeavors.
Kind regards
Cezary
P.S. If you are willing to debate on the right name of MMT in Italy or any other issues related to macroeconomics or MMT you are kindly welcome to the place conviniently designed to hold longer discussions namely http://bit.ly/MMTWorld.
Actually all members of this forum are kindly invited here http://bit.ly/MMTWorld as we perceive you as natural allies. Those who want to come to debunk MMT are warmly welcomed too as we may ocassionally learn something revolutionary or innovative.
@Paolo Barnard,
I like your thinking, but I’m afraid that as a native English speaker ME-MMT doesn’t really sound like “I want MMT” to me. I first read it as M-E-M-M-T which is just a lot of letters. I guess you intend it to be read as Me-M-M-T but that also doesn’t suggest “I want MMT” to me, and it feels unnatural to say it that way.
It seems like it would work in Spanish (“Mi MMT”=”My MMT”) and maybe in Italian as well (I don’t speak Italian), but of course the proper initialism in Spanish (and Italian as well I’d think?) is TMM.
I also think that the name, the abbreviated name, and the logo should all match for sake of clarity and branding. MEMMT or MEMMTPP are just too long. I don’t really love plain “MMT” either–I’d prefer a name that’s short enough to be typically not abbreviated–but I don’t have a better suggestion. I guess “Moslerian Economics” would match Keynesian Economics.
@Chaz, I had replied just below. Thanks PB
Hi all, this is a serious matter. I’m very well aware that the name MMT is now common speak for too many to be changed in conversations. But not the logo. It’s the logo that’s crucial. Take a look at our ME-MMT logo above left: it’s been carefully designed to leave the MMT letters but it adds the E at the top, which prods readers to read the full title: Mosler Economics MMT for Public Purpose. All I’m saying is that this logo should be adopted internationally in blogs, sites, papers etc. Then we’re all free to keep saying MMT in talks. But with this logo pasted wherever MMT is present, folks will then recall that it’s Mosler Economics. Look, I’m not doing this because I’m a good friend of Warren. I’m doing this because I’ve seen too many instances where all sorts of MMTers went a bit astray with their theorizations, and Warren should be there to establish the right track once and for all. This man is 2 centuries ahead of anyone else in Public Purpose economics, this is a fact. Thx P
@Paolo Barnard,
Basque saying: Nori berea, da zuzenbidea
English translation: To each their own, that is justice
I do agree with Paolo.
joseba
(University of the Basque Country. Just finished a book of 286 pages in Basque about ME-MMT, i.e, ME-DMT = Mosler Ekonomia-Diru Teoria Modernoa)
@joseba felix tobar-arbulu,
Sorry,
ME-DTM: Mosler Ekonomia-Diru Teoria Modernoa
OK, here’s the full set of ideas forward, as I related them to Warren. Feel free to propagate. Thx PB
Dear W,
As you know, I’m shifting strategies towards a very high level intervention where it matters. Let’s face it: we could propagate ME MMT to the general public for 2 centuries, and probably go nowhere. The fact of the matter is that Western people are dead, unable to react even when deprived of the most basic rights. We have 40 millions Americans barely eating once a day in the richest country on earth and not storming DC. This is but one of the most glaring examples of what I’m saying. Don’t be fooled by the popularization of ME MMT here in Italy. Nothing is happening in reality, just a lot of fuss on the net, tons of mouse ‘clicktivism’, tons of praise for us, but little or no real change. The politicians know this and so easily ignore us. As Keynes himself maintained, it’s the elites that truly do change their times, never the people.
The Neoclassicals know full well that there exists no elite of trained and clever ME MMT-Public Purpose technocrats. They know that we have no Think Tanks, no funding, we have no elite capable of infiltrating the power structure. They instead do and did have them. They actually won the battle of the end of the XX century over economics precisely because they armed themselves with Think Tanks and trained thousands of white collar technocrats to do their bidding. Ok, they had pots of funds, but this is not the most pivotal point. In the modern media structure, it only takes a few excellent figures with charisma and outstanding knowledge to be able to create a sensation. If then these few charismatic figures are surrounded by a small army of excellent technocrats, then they will stand a good chance with the public. From there on the way to government is not impossibile. I could name many examples of this, already standing in EU politics. Now to our point.
We, and I mean ME MMT, must grow up. As I told you a few days ago, you are a School of Government, not just an economist, not just a smart analyst. This School of Government, I very much think, is the most progressive and above all enlightened form of government I ever came across, and, contrary to all the other fancy proposals, ME MMT has full grasp of how the economy really works. It must become an international Think Tank, no less. It must as a Think Tank start churning out white collar ME MMT technocrats, people ready to sit at local, regional, national govt level and do the right thing. Today we have 0 people like that. Where do we go without them?
An international ME MMT Think Tanks requires first of all a brand name. I created Mosler Economics School of Government, with its ME MMT logo. It requires that you be the top, and that as many MMT academics as possible join in. It requires that Pavlina, Randy, Bill M, Ian, Mat, Stephanie understand that there will never be any MMT anywhere without an institutional structure. This is a colossal truism. Name me one single theoretical school in history that became respectable and influential without an institutional structure. I’m bewildered by the fact that the UMKC MMT academics have never given this idea an absolute priority.
Absent that, ME MMt will remain this exotic thing popping up here and there and looked at as a peculiar oddity, no more, a fancy thing with a bunch of followers scattered in blogs but no serious technocrats-white collar professionals making it government. So here’s what it looks like:
MOSLER ECONOMICS SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT
Mosler Economics and Modern Money Theory for Public Purpose
* lobbying policymakers for MEMMT in government
* grouping up special interest groups like industry, firms, unions, employees, under MEMMT
* financing Master degrees in MEMMT for selected students
* lobbying the media through the advertising of MEMMT key policy proposals
* producing targeted policy papers and analysis on pressing economic issues
* propagating MEMMT for ordinary people
@Paolo Barnard,
Now when the era of Monti Python is almost over, do you think that there is any chance that the ideas of Functional Finance, Post-Keynesian Economics and Chartalism (creatively repackaged as “MMT” with or without prefixes) may get any traction in Italy? Will Berlusconi “standing at the edge of abyss”, spill the beans? Or will Berlusconi himself be pushed into that abyss by the Eurocrats?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/09/mario-monti-italian-pm-resign
@Paolo Barnard,
Well it is sad to read from your letter to Warren “The fact of the matter is that Western people are dead, unable to react even when deprived of the most basic rights.” I don’t think that’s a correct model of Western people behaviors.
Please google “KONY 2012″ on you tube which is the evidence that not all WEstern people are dead.”
Anbody else getting deja-vue ?
Paolo, slow down.
I said before I believe MMT (the followers) could do with a bit if ‘organising’. What you are proposing is to redesign the whole movement (whatever its nature) at a stroke. I think, if you managed to succeed, and I don’t think you have a prayer, you would lose many of those followers.
I think if MMT (the movement) is to go anywhere it does need leadership and that leadership has to come from the combination of Warren, Bill and Randy. I don’t know how often they talk but without that consensus I don’t think MMT (the movement) can go very far.
Why not for starters opt for a much less ambitious target eg. an international association with a fee-paying membership list. I for one would be proud to be a member and I think most serious followers would sign up.
That could be a springboard for all kinds of future action and would give us an idea of our strength.
But I repeat. This has to be initated by a consensus between the big 3 and some kind of joint statement.
That might get things moving.
How about it guys ?
@Andy,
I have already got the program and the slogan: Вся власть советам!
Seriously speaking the only point everyone visiting / commenting on Warren’s blog can agree upon is that the long-absent sanity needs to be brought back to the macroeconomic debate. Everything else including making definitive statements where that debate should lead to is in my opinion seriously counter-productive.
@Adam (ak), But if Warren, Bill and Randy came out with a joint statement saying that they approved the settling up of an International Association by so and so, based on certain key principles and the promotion of these objectives blah blah would you pay 75 dollars to become a member? and more importantly would you spend your time helping that association to succeed in its aims ?
@Andy,
What for? So you think that “this time it will be different”?
Why do you think that a so-called MMT Association will do any good? Do we need another Peter G. Peterson Foundation?
I am not saying that I won’t donate $70 for organising an event but not for a permanent structure.
Look what happened to those who championed “social justice” in Australia:
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/labor-left-apologises-over-macdonald-20121205-2auzh.html
The ultimate goal is to get everyone involved in the political life to speak the language based on correct understanding of macroeconomics.
How often do we hear in 2012 politicians debating miasma in the context of public health issues? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miasma_theory
Unfortunately both sides of the political divide still express their willingness to curb the “excessive and unsustainable growth of the public debt”.
@Andy,
If you are willing to debate on MMT movement or any other issues related to macroeconomics or MMT you are kindly welcome to the place conviniently designed to hold longer discussions namely http://bit.ly/MMTWorld. Please everybody feel invited. The group is based on intellectual capital sharing. No financial resources are necesssary at this stage of movement development.
“Modern Monetary Theory – MMT World” at LinkedIn is owned by all contributors and we have a mission to involve people around the world in understanding, discussing and co-creating policies based on MMT. The goals is to involve massive international public amounting to hundreds, thousands, millions into MMT movement. Then we can think of effective influence of various institutions, organizations, goverments.
Who can reasonably ignore petition signed by hundreds of thousands real people not just nicknames ?
I’m quite sure Warren, Bill, Randy and other expert MMTers will agree to support such an international movement with their expertise. Certainly if there is anything to support. So let’s do it. Let’s intelligently involve other people. They are not weak they are ignorant re MMT. And ther is a huge difference between ignorance and stupidity. Arrogance ? How do you know that your knowledge is correct ? How do you verify it ? Warren demonstrated how to approach arrogance.
Kind regards
Cezary, Reporting co-owner of “MMT World”@LinkedIn
An association would be no more than a coming together of people with common idea.
Surely there are clear principles, aims and knowledge that MMTers believe in and can come together over.
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts and all that. Strength in numbers, Common purpose etc
Cezary
Thank you. What about all the intelligent, passionate MMT supporters that are not on Linkedin, such as myself?
I know MMTers are the kind of people that don’t join things which is one of the reasons I think they are a bright bunch.
All I am advocating here is a coming together.
The subscription is nominal and merely to show we are serious people.
@Andy,
Andy,
You are welcome. I think that intelligent, passionate MMT supporters that are not on LinkedIn as yourself are allies of those who chose to be at LinkedIn.
To come together with anybody i want to learn who i’m coming with and for what purpose.
What subscription do you mean ? Those who don’t pay subscription fee are not serious people ? Serious about what ?My time is more valuable than money for me. And i won’t spend money on something i don’t spend my time on.
Cezary
To come together with anybody i want to learn who i’m coming with and for what purpose
You would be coming together with people who sign up to and agree with the principles and objectives as set out by a joint statement from Warren, Bill and Randy. If you did not agree with those, you would not sign up. I would imagine those idea would be based around advancing public purpose, full employment and describing how the monetary system works.
What subscription do you mean ?
I mean a nominal fee to establish a formal membership that is serious about promoting said principles and objectives possibly via press releases passed by a 2 thirds majority of the membership. Whatever. Perhaps the fee could also be used towards an annual conference. There would be no problem with auditing the Accounts now would there?
Those who don’t pay subscription fee are not serious people
Of course not. Serious people can choose not to join and still keep their seriousness.
Serious about what?
Serious about speaking with a joint voice
My time is more valuable than money for me
Same here
And i won’t spend money on something i don’t spend my time on.
The whole point would be for members to work for said principles and objectives under one strong powerful Umbrella Association (depending of course on how many ‘serious’ mmters there are out there):)
I would like to think there would be plenty of work to be done in the coming years.
It would also give us an idea of the strength of the MMT movement and how close everyone is in terms of their ideas about MMT.
@Andy,
Andy,
Putting aside tons of details which are to be settled on the way to building Global MMT Association i feel i’m in for this project funded by members. Personally I’d insist on global range with subscription fee adjusted to purchasing power e.g. percentage of country minimal or average wage. I wish i can afford the fee or can earn it by rendering service to Global MMT Association. What’ the next step ?
Warren, Bill, Randy and/or other seasoned MMTers got to strike a deal and take the leadership role. Then i can recommend some professional who make their living from creating successful organization to assist with building a concept.
By the time, i’m involved with attracting people from around the world and different walks of life to “MMT World”@LinkedIn (http://bit.ly/MMTWorld). Perhaps many of them would like to join Umbrella Association you’ve just “seriously” 🙂 outlined to have fun, feel good and serve lofty goal of spreading MMT-based-policy making (or MoslerEconomics as Paolo Barnard would probably prefer) around the globe for global society benefits.
Amen.:-)
Cezary
Cezary
We are all on the same side and I think some of our communication may have been lost in translation but I think we are all trying to push these ideas forward one way or another.
As to the next step, that would be up to Warren, Bill and Randy to get together and I’m not sure that’s going to happen. They might all end up having their own versions of MMT in which case ‘the movement’, if there is one, will probably disappear quite quickly. The ideas and the insights should remain though. Truth always outs in the end. (hopefully). Maybe that’s the way it should be as Adam hinted. I think that would be a bit sad though. All these clever people wanting to change things but just can’t find a way to get together.
If I ever join Linkedin I will look you up.
All the best
Andy
Dear all,
Your objections to my sweeping proposal are all sensible ones. Indeed I thought myself many times “why not group up all the top MMters under one umbrella org.? My first idea was to set up the IMMT, that was the Institute for Modern Money Theory Studies, bases at the UMKC, staffed by Kelton Wray Mosler and the lot. I prepared a draft plan, sent it to the UMKC folks, and got a reply back from Randy saying that he’d be part of it if I found some 10 millions US$ funding. Ok, like saying I’ll marry you if you walk blindfolded to Siberia and back in the time I have breakfast. Second thing that emerged was that there was a bit of ‘prima donna’ conflict going on in there. I was cautioned against calling anyone ‘the leading MMT scholar’ or things like that. Fine. Then came another realization, that I’ve have already hinted at: MMT was not universally understood as the same thing by all the UMKC folks. Big confusion there. Actually, some of the pillars of Warren’s thinking were entirely missing.
So. I came to the conclusion that the only way out of this was to reestablish the right order of things, and to found something higher than a mere Institute. The Warren Mosler School of Government, armed with Modern Money Theory, for the Public Purpose. Warren at the top, all the other scholars on an equal footing below. Then us supporters and grass root organizers. Then fundraising and supporters. Most importantly: the logo that will unify the entire world MMT movement under its chief while preserving its previous acronym.
PB
@Paolo Barnard,
Paolo,
I have no objection to your plans as you seem to have good reasons for structuring them the way you previously described.
The main purpose IMO is to spread the knowledge around the globe to reach citical mass of supporters and then influence governments and national societies to implemented MMT or ME-MMT based policies on national scale.
@Paolo Barnard,
It is pretty normal when bunch of bright individuals work together sometimes to have some differences, but in the case with the prominent MMT people I am sure they all agree on the very basic idea, namely, achieving and maintaining of full employment combined with price stability. I don’t see any problems at all – just my personal opinion.
Agreed!
Paolo has taken the lead with his proposal and I’ve agreed to play my role.
@WARREN MOSLER,
And as I replied to Paolo earlier – that’s great!
@WARREN MOSLER,
Good luck to you guys and keep us informed about the ME-MMT project progress please.
will do.
the ball’s in Paolo’s court.
Just. one small problem then isn’t there ? And I quote :
“MMT is Warren and he must be at the top”.
Or should that be ME- MMT?
This is sad.
I can’t speak for Paolo, but probably, but realize he was writing a quick comment, etc.
@Andy, Why sad? Warren started it all. Wouldn’t you say that keynesianism is JM Keynes? Randy, Stephanie, Pavlina, Bill M, Mathew and the rest are all superb thinkers and economists. What’s the problem? Again: the important part is the new international logo. Look at it: il has MMT well in evidence, but the E next to the top M is what matters, as it adds Mosler Economics back to the scene. So at the end we still have all the good of MMT plus a clear leadership spelled out by its proper name: Mosler. That’s how you build a school of thought. That’s how you give the public a clear indication of who we are. And as I’m a very frank person, let me add that all the MMT academics we have today are far from flawless, and to this day the clearest mind of them all when it comes to economics is still Warren Mosler. So him at the top is a guarantee for the whole MMT movement worldwide. PB
“got a reply back from Randy saying that he’d be part of it if I found some 10 millions US$ funding”
I hope that’s not true. Alot of my bubbles are being burat today.
No wonder Bill stay’s out of this stuff.
we all have our personalities which is necessarily the case with humans.
@Andy, Excuse me, I’m a serious person. Randy did say that. He meant to say that 10 millions was the minimum necessary sum to be donated and then invested by UMKC to guarantee enough annual revenues to pay for the IMMT + permanent staff + offices and so on. I thought that although his estimate might have been absolutely correct, to say “I’ll be in it if we find that kind of money” was a non starter. That’s all. PB